tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post116455744820220228..comments2024-02-28T04:20:40.719-06:00Comments on THE LAST LIBERAL STANDING: Islam, Conservatives, Liberals and ProgressivesBob Kellerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18171655256407149176noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post-1164685561482514842006-11-27T21:46:00.000-06:002006-11-27T21:46:00.000-06:00Wizard, thanks for conscientiously addressing each...Wizard, thanks for conscientiously addressing each of my concerns. We are destined to agree to disagree for the time being. I will say that I write mainly on what (a) I care most deeply and (b) what I think I can influence. (I may be extremely delusional about the latter.) The constraints on my time require both A and B variables. <BR/><BR/>I care deeply about the Taliban. I don't think I can influence the way they treat women (or men); If they haven't changed in 3 1/2 years, then I feel as I did on 9-20-2001, hearing Buush's speech: I would like to bust them back (permanently) to the Medieval world whence they came. If we could just get our troops re-deployed from Iraq where they are doing no earthly good, we might be able to bust them again. (But that's another story. And a complicated one.)<BR/><BR/>It comes to me, if we must talk about labels, that we ought maybe to think about a new taxonomy. The traditional dichotomy of conservatism and liberalism do not work for me. Maybe I can come up with some classifications or categories we can both agree on. (A daunting task!)<BR/><BR/>One final thing. I think it is my calling - I'm sure you share it - to engage in outreach. Not that I think I possess or embody truth, but I feel it is incumbent upon me as a member of our planet's demographic, to speak out to others. To go out of my way, seek them out, wherever the limits of language permit. And the limits of time, of course. That is why I engage Israelis, Muslims, and Republicans (!) - just to name a few - whoever I can find someone who will change a few words with me. Frequently, the time spent is not rewarding. But I persist. I persist because I don't think the end of blogging - its mission - is eloquent posturing (good thing for me, eh?); it is change and pursuit of consensus.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for participating in that process with me, Wizard.Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post-1164597170416112112006-11-26T21:12:00.000-06:002006-11-26T21:12:00.000-06:00vigilante wrote: "Finally, and this probably pert...<B>vigilante</B> wrote: <I>"Finally, and this probably pertains to the Blogosphere more than anywhere else: even with the powers of a Wizard, you have no idea how much energy anyone - myself included - has spent critically examining and criticizing different Islamic writers or actors. There's no way you could be conscientiously secure or confident in your grasp of my perceptions, concerns or depth of feelings pertaining to Islamist, Islamism, or Islam."</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. And that is my point exactly. And the final proof is your link to John Akec. Individually, each of us is different. Which is why you cannot discuss individuals and reach any reasonable conclusions.<BR/><BR/>Group labels are helpful, they do not deny individuality.<BR/><BR/>the Wizard.....Bob Kellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171655256407149176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post-1164596097642766262006-11-26T20:54:00.000-06:002006-11-26T20:54:00.000-06:00vigilante, Onward to your first point ~ Labels. W...<B>vigilante</B>, Onward to your first point ~ Labels. While I regret you find my use of labels a "flawed habit," I find the use both necessary and insightful.<BR/><BR/>To be certain, no one, not one single person, ever fits into any group. If you take 100 Southern Baptists and place them in a room, you'll get 100 different theologies (this, as opposed to placing 100 Unitarians in a room, where you are certain to get well over 200 different theologies ;) ).<BR/><BR/>Still, it is useful to discuss Southern Baptists as a group to help understand their impact on small town southern culture.<BR/><BR/>For example, our small town is "dry" and it is the very powerful Southern Baptist influence, including organized and highly motivated church voting blocks, that keep the town dry, effectively defeating every ballot measure that would allow liquor by drink or in package stores.<BR/><BR/>And yet, individually, virtually every church member I know drinks and goes into the "big city" and buys liquor or visits chain restaurants and has a drink with dinner.<BR/><BR/>Individually, all will claim to be in favor of the great economic boom alcohol would bring to our struggling community, and yet, in the clostered privacy of the voting booth, the measures are easily defeated.<BR/><BR/>So, while you might feel I would be better served to discuss a specific liberal or progressive rather than the group, it is actually pointless and certainly less than useful. While I often quote Trey Ellis over at The Huffington Post, I only can really know him on the very narrow basis of his few writings. And then only based on writings I might have read.<BR/><BR/>But, to visit the big blog factories like Huffington or Kos or even Technorati and do a search and quickly determine that topic "A" is being totally ignored by one general group of bloggers, is helpful and insightful. <BR/><BR/>Trey Eillis may or may not really and deeply care about the plight of women in UN occupied Afghanistan. I don't know. But I do know that virtually no Huffington Blogger is writing about it.<BR/><BR/>How do you feel about the plight of Afghan women? I actually do know you do care, but it's hardly a topic you write about. Your focus IS ON PRESIDENT BUSH. Even a casual reader knows that. You write about what you care about. That is as it should be.<BR/><BR/>There is such a thing as "group think." There are shared values. It's not wrong to discuss these. They are very important.<BR/><BR/>Lables are very helpful. I recognize that no one fits perfectly into any group. But the group still does exist, even without a single "ideal" member. <BR/><BR/>the Wizard.....Bob Kellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171655256407149176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post-1164592105536045322006-11-26T19:48:00.000-06:002006-11-26T19:48:00.000-06:00vigilante, Thank you for the very insightful and h...<B>vigilante</B>, Thank you for the very insightful and helpful comments.<BR/> <BR/>First, concerning John Akec, I an a regular reader and have corresponded with him in the past. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure you realize that he and I are of one mind on this issue and I have posted similar (virtually identical) praise for President Bush and his entire cabinet, especially Colin Powell, John Bolton and John Danforth for their work on behalf of the people of Darfur.<BR/><BR/>The efforts of the Democrats against Bolton show our political system at it's very worst. In order to continue pressure on Bush, Bolton is held hostage, soon to be either sacrificed or held up as an example of Bush's arrogance.<BR/><BR/>It's tragic.....<BR/><BR/>More to follow. I'm going to separate this contentious issue from the more important comments you made earlier.<BR/><BR/>the Wizard.....Bob Kellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171655256407149176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post-1164588413432901122006-11-26T18:46:00.000-06:002006-11-26T18:46:00.000-06:00As a footnote to two of the above points, here is ...As a footnote to two of the above points, here is a self-described socialist who think Bush is a (Biblical) savior of Darfur. I give you, <A HREF="http://johnakecsouthsudan.blogspot.com/2006/11/democrats-gain-in-us-mid-term.html" REL="nofollow">John A. Akec</A>Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post-1164580072858895192006-11-26T16:27:00.000-06:002006-11-26T16:27:00.000-06:00Part IIIFinally (and briefly) in regards to who ha...Part III<BR/><BR/>Finally (and briefly) in regards to who has said what on which strain of Islam, I have two observations:<BR/><BR/>One, I submit that Americans who are most effective in their political activity - writing, acting, serving - address most of their concerns with American governance, as opposed to - in the instance of your concern - Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or the Sudan. It is our own government we can, theoretically, most expect to influence. Not that it isn't important to scrutinize things in foreign lands. It is. It is often said that Americans don't learn much about foreign countries until they find themselves at war with them. So, pro active critical thinking about international issues is critically important. But much of our partisan writing and action is understandably directed at our own political institutions.<BR/><BR/>Finally, and this probably pertains to the Blogosphere more than anywhere else: even with the powers of a Wizard, you have no idea how much energy anyone - myself included - has spent critically examining and criticizing different Islamic writers or actors. There's no way you could be conscientiously secure or confident in your grasp of my perceptions, concerns or depth of feelings pertaining to Islamist, Islamism, or Islam.Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post-1164578816449919882006-11-26T16:06:00.000-06:002006-11-26T16:06:00.000-06:00Secondly, in light of the lack of objectivity in a...Secondly, in light of the lack of objectivity in attributing political labels, ought you not rely more on self-identification of politicos? In other words, rely on specific writers, officials or activists to identify themselves as leftists, rightists, liberals, conservatives, progressives? That might encourage you to be more specific into linking your observations to the actual words or actions of people. <BR/><BR/>Having said this, I will confirm for your benefit and your readers' that you have accurately ascribed to me the label of Progressive:<BR/><BR/>"<I>Progressives unite in one critical area: they hate George Bush and they hate the invasion and occupation of Iraq. They want the troops home now and they want Bush humiliated and controlled, if not impeached and imprisoned. Nothing can be accomplished until Bush is removed from effective power . . . until the greatest evil in history is removed from the world stage.</I>"<BR/><BR/>I self-identify with and own this description. You may have had me in mind when you wrote it. Or you may have read my site this morning before you wrote it.Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12597943.post-1164577594854526782006-11-26T15:46:00.000-06:002006-11-26T15:46:00.000-06:00I have three observations. Two of these may confli...I have three observations. Two of these may conflict, without cancelling each other out.<BR/><BR/>In the first instance, you are continuing your old flawed habit of being preoccupied with labels. This is a problem I have had with your writing before. Briefly, this identifies you as a spectator more than a participant in politics. This habit of mind encourages you to publish team programs instead of game plans; punditry instead of advocacy. This would be okay, as long as your readers knew what they were getting when the wanted to know who is on what team and whether they play offense or defense. The problem is. in politics the labels you toss out, (left, right, liberal, conservative, progressive) are subjective, in the eye of the beholder. This tempts you into making glib, over-generalized observations. And some readers, who disagree with your assignment to, or descriptions of, various 'teams', will tend to feel that your generalizations are <B>gross</B> over generalizations, and not at all benevolent.<BR/><BR/>I, OTOH, know you better and would expect that you intend no malice. Even so, I am so blinded or distracted by this penchant of yours, that I might easily miss the import you intend with your piece. (Maybe, in fact, I have in this instance.)Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.com