Monday, December 29, 2008

Peace Was Never An Option

Recommended Reading:

  • CNN: Gaza death toll from Israeli offensive exceeds 375

  • MEMRI: PLO and Fatah Officials: Hamas is Responsible for the Deaths of Its People

    A big part of the problem we have as Americans and western Europeans is we continuously attempt to frame the Israeli-Arab conflict through our moral values. We assume, very wrongly, that both sides ultimately want peace. It just is not true.

    We are about to witness a New Year's Eve massacre with thousands of Palestinians dead and wounded. We are about to witness a humanitarian crisis of biblical proportions. I'm not trying to be glib or funny or ironic. Hospitals lack supplies and the residents of Gaza lack food and basic supplies.

    I don't believe Israel will back off this time. And I don't think they should. What is happening is simply tragic. It is not avoidable.

    The leaders of Hamas desire this totally predictable outcome. They are more than willing to spend the only capital they possess: human lives. They want thousands of their own citizens dead. They want live television coverage. They want blood in the streets, the blood of Palestinians.

    By ending the tenuous six month old cease fire with dozens of poorly crafted missiles aimed clumsily at Israeli civilians, they counted on the overwhelming military response. Now they are counting on international outrage. And they hope that other Arab countries will join them in the fight. Or that the worldwide moral outrage will leave Israel weakened and without support.

    But the real truth is that the Oslo Accords were a tragic mistake. Far from being a "roadmap to peace" they are a monument to Western arrogance and stupidity. In reality the Oslo Accords were simply a delaying action that provided cover to two sets of people who never had the slightest desire to travel any path to peace.

    A Two State Solution? Neither side wants one. Neither side will tolerate a two state solution.

    Where will this current battle end? Nowhere. Israel cannot wipe out Hamas. And the west will not turn against Israel. Thousands will suffer and die. And they battle lines will remain unchanged.

    Frankly, I believe that the only solution is a single state solution. Israel should annex 100% of the disputed Palestinian territory. By force. All Palestinians should then become provisional Israeli citizens.

    Then, and only then, can the world begin to treat Israel like they treated apartheid South Africa. Then and only then can a real roadmap to peace be found.


    Lee said...

    Wizard, If you figure out a solution for peace in the middle east, let me know.

    cosmiccowboy said...

    Hamas had lobbed over 3,000 rockets into Israel this past year and they target civilians first.I say god bless Israel in this endevor and hope they wipe these sub-human bastards off the map.

    Did you know that Hamas leaders celebrate the killing of a jewish women or child by handing out sweets to people in the street.

    This is the bunch that Jimmy Carter is in love with.

    Vigilante said...

    Cosmic Cowboy is full of crap.

    But Wizard, you are not. Especially when you say,

    A Two State Solution? Neither side wants one. Neither side will tolerate a two state solution.

    Where I disagree with you is on a single state solution. I don't think that's going to work. The older I get, the more convinced I am that some problems don't have solutions.

    Lee said...

    Wizard, This would be the second time I have come across you and Rush Limbaugh have the same idea.

    "he only way some form of quiet will ever exist in the Middle East is if Israel is given the latitude to totally defeat its declared enemies. Only then will the terrorist attacks on Israel's civilians come to an end. Perpetual negotiations, diplomatic half measures, or land for peace deals will not bring peace to the Middle East. For those who believe this is an irresponsible notion, I use history as my guide."

    Vigilante, better minds have tried, with zero results, to bring peace to that region. I like to hope that someday, something might, without horrible casualty counts.

    cosmiccowboy said...

    Vigilante,you're a moron plain and simple.

    Hamas has indeed fired over 3,000 rockets into Israel this year and yes their main objective is to target civilians and yes Hamas leaders have handed out treats on the streets of Gaza City to celebrate the success of their rocket attacks.

    Fools like you sit bravely behind a keyboard expecting the people of Israel to reach across to the subhumans and sing kumbaya.

    You sir are a first class fool.

    Vigilante said...

    No one should misconstrue this comment as an attempt to have a discussion with the Cosmic Cowboy.

    I just want to re-frame the discussion at this point:

    1. Wizard is surely correct and profound when he says:A Two State Solution? Neither side wants one. Neither side will tolerate a two state solution.

    2. Jimmy Carter is not in love with Hamas.

    3. Palestinians are not subhuman. They do, however, have sub-par political leadership. (They are not the only people beset with this handicap.)

    Sadly, as I said before, here is a problem which I do not think will find a solution in my life time.

    Lee said...

    Former president Jimmy Carter, really should stop playing president. IMHO.

    Love? dunno. Although he was seen hugging and kissed a leading Hamas official at a reception...

    Provided some legitimacy? Yes. Going against the state department. He came to the conclusion that Hamas is "prepared to accept the right of the Jewish state to "live as a neighbor next door in peace."

    Now we see the disproportionate response garbage being thrown around by Carter and the MSM.

    Stella said...

    Beautiful post, Wizard. I absolutely agree with Lee: I have no clue as to how anyone will solve this problem. I don't agree with Limbaugh, however. There are flaws in his logic, but I guess I should read the article before I go off on one of my rants.

    Lee has a good point when he writes Hamas is "prepared to accept the right of the Jewish state to "live as a neighbor next door in peace."

    You're right, Wizard, neither side wants to live in peace or maybe neither government wants people to live in peace. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge this simple fact is uneducated.

    Cosmiccowbow, I dislike anyone calling the Palestinians "sub-human." It's that kind of bigotry on both sides that have caused so much harm. I would need proof of your assertions before I can accept them.

    I will, like I always almost do, agree with Vig. The only people that are morons are those who cannot handle differing points of view.

    George Bush was hugging and kissing Prince Bandar, then walking with him hand-in-hand knowing that 9 of 15 terrorists during 9/11 were Saudi Arabian. Carter is no where near as close to Hamas as the Bushes.

    The entire situation is a mess: it always has been. Like Vig, I don't think I'll see a solution in my lifetime, and I wish I were wrong.

    MadMike said...

    Wizard my first instinct was to agree with you regarding a one state solution. I don't think that will work because it will continue in conflict only this time as a civil war. Blood will run in the streets at an increased volume and no one will know friend from enemy. Regardless your concern is clear.

    Cosmiccowboy: What Stella said! Your rude comments concerning my friend Vigilante show the level of your learning. It is a reflection of the education system in America.

    cosmiccowboy said...

    Well MadMike I'm really sorry you feel that way about my comments directed at your "friend" Vigilante (not that there's anything wrong with that)but if he does indeed hold Hamas in such high reguard he is in fact a fool,plain and simple.There is no question about it.

    It never ceases to amaze how people can sit at keyboards and,in this case,fault the state of Israel while she protects her people.

    I'd guess if some one lobbed a few rockets into your backyards you'd be the first to cry for retaliation....would you want to join hands and sing Kumbaya after half your family was killed?If you would you're truely weak.

    Vigilante said...

    Cowboy, at least Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert torched Nizar Rayan. That's more than Bush - for whom you voted (twice!) - could do to Osama bin Laden, after eight years and trillions of $$$.

    Kumbaya, my ass.

    Stella said...

    CosmicCowboy, although I am not Israeli, I was brought up Jewish (I hope you understand the difference) with respect for Israel being a country surrounded by enemies. I am well educated enough to sit at this keyboard knowing that hate destroys people. The increasing hate and bombing between both factions—Hamas and the Israelis—are at the root of the problem.

    Faithful Muslims respect the "people of the Book," Christians and Jews, and all three religions view these atrocities as wrong in accordance with their faith.

    The problem surfaces from Saudi Arabia that prints the Qu'ran and edits the text to fanatics that they should use missles and murder to obliterate their "enemies."

    Nat Geo takes us into the reality of the region Moderates do exist in the region, thousands of Jews, Muslims, and Christians who wish to forge bonds and work for peace. But the circumstances in Bethlehem are so fraught that even the most minor efforts—an Arab village attempting to sell produce to an Israeli town; the local Palestinian university trying to host a Jewish lecturer—are stymied by the ugly realities. Get a clue: this is not a religious problem, but a political one.

    Overall, I agree with Wizard that both sides do not want peace: but I would add that those who do not want peace are both sides of the fanatical fringes in both religions.

    I don't know if some of my relatives were fortunate enough to survive the holocaust and migrate to Israel. If you voted for Bush, then you have only yourself to blame for the hostilities occurring in the Gaza Strip. Only 19% of Jews voted for Bush because they understand the problems this administration created in the Middle East and want to protect Israel.

    Both sides are bombing each other, and both sides are wrong. If Vigilante or Mad Mike are morons, then I hope I will be as much a moron as they are some day. The problem with your perspective clearly arises from not understanding history and desperately needing a fixed point of view, rather than seeing both sides of the story through lack of knowledge.

    Lee commented, and I feel Vigilante and Mike are well aware, that better minds have tried, with zero results, to bring peace to that region. I like to hope that someday, something might, without horrible casualty counts. I agree with Lee in wanting peace for all people in the Middle East.

    You, Sir, are deficient in judgment, knowledge, historical veracity, and common sense.

    cosmiccowboy said...

    I've spent considerable time in Israel,although I've never set foot in the Gaza strip I do however feel I have an understanding of the situation.Even Meimad,a true leftwing party called for retaliation after the Hamas December rocket attacks.Bibi Netanyahu and the Likud party are well ahead in all polls leading up to the general election in Feb..If they take power you aint seen nothing yet.

    I have a hard time understanding how some americans who have never come close to experiencing what the people of Israel go through each day feel compeled to pass judgement on their actions.

    Sitting safe a warm half a world away makes it easy to wish for peace between them.Israel has a right to exist and protect itself.If you think differently you're just foolish.

    Vigilante said...

    Americans got a dose of it on 9-11-01. But your president, for whom you voted twice, was ineffectual in (a) preventing it and (b) avenging it. He is a cowboy all hat and no cattle. Like you?

    Stella said...

    I am well aware about Netanyahu and the Likud party, and you are right. If they take power, things will be much worse in the Middle East. The Likud Party is analagous to the ultra-conservative faction in the U.S. These are not Israelis who want peace: rather, they are revving up for war.

    Both Netanyahu and Sharon were Likud party members subscribe to the political platform The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the Likud Party platform “flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.” The chapter continues: “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.”

    "Likud" is Hebrew for Unity. Why is there no unity between the Israelis, Palestinians, the Christians, and the Muslims? Because fanatics cannot work with each other to create peace. If Likud wins in February, they will be the Israeli party akin to the Bush Administration in policy.

    I am not passing judgment solely on Israel's actions, but I have a hard time understanding why America doesn't engage in diplomatic efforts to help the region. Certainly, the Israelis have a right to protect themselves: they are a small country surrounded by hostile nations. However, following your logic, so does every other country in the Middle East have a right to sovereignty, including the Palestinians.

    (Oy, my parents would have a fit if they read this.)

    At the risk of repeating myself, this is a political, rather than a religious, issue. Anyone who thinks differently is unaware of the scope of the situation. Are you willing to consider this a right of the Muslims, too? Administrations like the outgoing Bushites who focus all their efforts and resources on war are precisely what cause these bombings and uprisings.

    In February 2008, President Elect Obama stated: "You know, as your commander in chief, my job will be to keep you safe ... And I will not hesitate to strike against any who would do us harm. I will do whatever is required." That would include hunting down terrorists, securing loose nuclear weapons, and deploying the U.S. military wisely, he said. He further underscored his foreign policy paradigm: "I want to rediscover the power of our diplomacy. I said early in this campaign I would meet not just with our friends, but also with our enemies ... I remember what John F. Kennedy said. He said we should never negotiate out of fear, but we should never fear to negotiate.

    That pretty much sums up my beliefs. I do not advocate to overturn Israel's right as a sovereign nation, but I feel concerned that the failure to allow the Palestinians the same right may be the underlying cause of many problems between the two peoples.

    The Jordan-Israel Peace Treaty, signed by Rabin in 1994, was a beginning to peace. The problems started in the Middle East when Bush invaded Iraq. Consider King Hussein's eulogy at Rabin's (Labor Party) funeral.

    Rabin was assassinated by right-wing Israeli radical Yigal Amir, who was opposed to Rabin's signing of the Oslo Accords. If people cannot find peace in their own land, the question remains—How do we create a peaceful world with others? Rabin and Hussein created a treaty.

    Why is this the exception rather than the rule? The true fools are those that cannot fathom the belief that peace is attainable.

    For some reason, Wizard's blog always gets me going with long, rambling comments. Maybe because he always has something of interest to say.

    Stella said...

    Egypt, too, is torn between Israel and Palestine.

    Vigilante said...

    You're good on all points, Stella. As usual.

    I was sitting at my keyboard in my small but comfortable home, warmed by the morning sun and my faithful Doberwoman at my feet, with Kumbaya playing softly in the background on the stereo, and I thought why not link this excellent article which sums up the Middle Eastern knot so well? The Truth About Those Hamas Rockets Actually, it doesn't cover everything you have, Stella. But it makes some good points.

    Lee said...

    OMG vig. What a poor level of excellence you must have to submit such factual vacuous article.

    Stella said...

    Aw, Lee. I'd rather hear about the Doberwoman. Wizard, care to comment?

    I found an interesting commentary: America's Hidden Role in Hammas' Rise to Power and the current news about Gaza.

    Let's revisit Lee's comment: If you figure out a solution for peace in the middle east, let me know.

    the WIZARD, fkap said...

    CosmicCowboy Welcome Aboard! You make some excellent points! The daily rocket attacks are stupid, cowardly and evil.

    But, as vigilante and stella point out, the Palestinain people are not "sub-human bastards." But we have generations of hatred built up on both sides. Hamas takes advantage of this hatred for their own, often evil, agenda.

    Stella, you clearly see both sides of this issue. Your comments are excellent.

    Lee, I find that once you get past the flamboyant rhetoric and hystrionics, Limbaugh is often spot on correct. This is a great example. Thanks for the link and info.

    Thanks to everyone for an excellent discussion.

    Stella said...

    You are such a kind person, Wizard. We may not always agree, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

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